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Post by elpresidente2016 on Nov 17, 2016 14:00:37 GMT
Dear all, Art de la Guerre is proving popular. It does however, have a big divide in the army lists between those armies that do have heavy infantry, and those that don't. This is predominantly the earlier lists that just have medium foot. So, firstly, who would be interested in an early period ladder/knock out/competition? secondly, can people reply if they have" chariot" era Armies, which ones they have and whether they are 15 or 25mm scale Tony
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Paulg
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Post by Paulg on Nov 18, 2016 8:54:30 GMT
I would be up for a big toys 25mm comp as I don't often get to play with my Assyrians/ Egyptians
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Post by denis on Nov 18, 2016 10:36:49 GMT
Heavy infantry appear quite early in the lists. They are actually in lists 1 and 2, although half of them have to be mediocre; but the Assyrian Empire (list 9) can field quite a lot of them. Sadly, my DBA Neo-Assyrian army would required a lot of extra figures to convert it to its LADLAG equivalent. However, I could manage an earlier Assyrian army (list 7) in 15mm.
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Post by CaptainDean on Nov 18, 2016 14:13:09 GMT
If I can borrow an army to play with I'll be up for this.
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Post by lysimachus on Nov 18, 2016 16:33:19 GMT
I could do Libyan and, maybe, Sea People as well as Mycenaean at 15MM. I could do classical Indian (they have chariots and no heavy foot) in 25s.
Mike
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Post by gavmeister on Nov 18, 2016 23:20:57 GMT
I'm in too as long as it is 20/25 mm basing, and I'd be happy to lend Dean an army.
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Paulg
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Post by Paulg on Nov 19, 2016 0:57:50 GMT
If I can borrow an army to play with I'll be up for this. Dean I could lend you a big toys Assyrian or Egyptian of you like
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bryaned
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Post by bryaned on Nov 19, 2016 21:54:35 GMT
I have my chariot army but it is 15mm. Earliest in big boys toys are Carthaginians.
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Paulg
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Post by Paulg on Nov 20, 2016 0:06:36 GMT
I have my chariot army but it is 15mm. Earliest in big boys toys are Carthaginians. Bryan how about your Indians I think there is an early one in adlg
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chrisr
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Post by chrisr on Nov 20, 2016 0:59:17 GMT
At 15mm I can do New Kingdom Egyptian, Neo-Assyrian and possibly one or two others. At 25mm my earliest army is Classical Greek (Hoplites).
Having said that I think you might be proceeding under a misapprehension. What makes Medium Foot so poor is that they are so weak in the open v mounted. I ran 6 units of Auxilia Palatina - Med Sword Impact - at the Central London ADLG day. That's as good as you get in terms of medium foot. When they stayed in the rough they got shot to pieces by bow-armed cavalry and when they came out they got run over by cavalry of all stripes. They were my Achilles' Heel (along with my natural incompetence). Going early 'might' reduce the HI contingent (but look at the Libyan Egyptian, Neo-Assyrian, Medes, or Mycenaean lists)but it won't help the medium foot. Light Chariots with Bow and Heavy Chariots will massacre them.
What is probably confusing you is that in the later stages of DBM there were armies that did very well in Biblical themes with a troop type that ADLG treats as Medium Swordsmen. But those armies largely used Irr Bl(F). They weren't (in DBM terms) Ax. They won because Irr Bl(F) were on equal factors to cavalry in combat, cost much less, and there was no distant shooting or evading. None of those factors apply in ADLG.
So I'm happy to join in if I can but I think someone is going to be disappointed.
Regards C
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Post by elpresidente2016 on Nov 20, 2016 6:05:27 GMT
Chris, I acknowledge the medium foot are weak in the open against mounted. There are options that make them less so( quite a lot can be taken as medium spear, which reduces the effect of mounted) ( I was dying to say impact, but resisted) and there are terrain options that would also help i.e. Play with maximum size bits of rough terrain, 6ud in diameter rather than what comes to hand at the club. If we can get enough interest, and it's looking that we may, playing the early lists will, I think, act as a levelling device, as nearly all the infantry will be equally vulnerable. Although I'm painting Mycenaean Greeks because they have heavy infantry. And I know you were writing late at night, but I'm sure I remember massed bow Armies in dbm, and evading troops.
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stevet
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Post by stevet on Nov 20, 2016 17:26:29 GMT
I can do Ancient Bedouin or Oman & Gulf States in 15mm also Celts but neither have chariots or Classical Indian which are from the next period but have Chariots and medium foot! And I could proxy my Han Chinese as Spring/Autumn Chinese in 28mm.
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chrisr
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Post by chrisr on Nov 20, 2016 18:09:14 GMT
Tony - The only things that could shoot at range in DBM were Bw and Art. There was no shooting by light foot (psiloi), or mounted (light horse or Cavalry. and there was no evading. Some units would flee if beaten in combat (eg Psiloi beaten by Blades in RGo or DGo) but that's not the same thing as mounted bow in ADLG who can evade then turn round and start shooting again.
Bow armies rarely worked in 15mm because they were easily ridden down. The exceptions were Bw(X) who could quick kill some mounted troops at impact and fought like spears otherwise, and armies with Elephants or Blades to protect the bow. 25mm was a different game as the reduced room for manoeuver meant far fewer mounted troops on the board. Bow were good v some heavy foot (particularly pikes) but were invariably supported by blades or Wb(F) (Steve L's preferred choice).
There are things you can do to help Medium Foot survive in the open, but that's tactics and not to do with the prevalence or otherwise of heavy foot.
On the terrain side, I think using the correct size of terrain is a good idea. A lot of the FOGR stuff is a little oversize and the result is that you are more likely to find you can't place a piece because it's too large. So, counter-intuitively, larger pieces result in less terrain on the table.
If you want to try a competition without HI you could just have it open but with a limit of say 2 units of heavy foot allowed; you don't need to go all Biblical!
Regards C
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Paulg
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Post by Paulg on Nov 20, 2016 19:57:06 GMT
I suggest we stop comparing DBM to adlg in this tread there is another section in this forum for DBM let's continue the discussion there if anybody is remotely interested in doing so which I doubt 😳
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Paulg
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Post by Paulg on Nov 20, 2016 20:10:17 GMT
Tony - The only things that could shoot at range in DBM were Bw and Art. There was no shooting by light foot (psiloi), or mounted (light horse or Cavalry. and there was no evading. Some units would flee if beaten in combat (eg Psiloi beaten by Blades in RGo or DGo) but that's not the same thing as mounted bow in ADLG who can evade then turn round and start shooting again. Bow armies rarely worked in 15mm because they were easily ridden down. The exceptions were Bw(X) who could quick kill some mounted troops at impact and fought like spears otherwise, and armies with Elephants or Blades to protect the bow. 25mm was a different game as the reduced room for manoeuver meant far fewer mounted troops on the board. Bow were good v some heavy foot (particularly pikes) but were invariably supported by blades or Wb(F) (Steve L's preferred choice). There are things you can do to help Medium Foot survive in the open, but that's tactics and not to do with the prevalence or otherwise of heavy foot. On the terrain side, I think using the correct size of terrain is a good idea. A lot of the FOGR stuff is a little oversize and the result is that you are more likely to find you can't place a piece because it's too large. So, counter-intuitively, larger pieces result in less terrain on the table. If you want to try a competition without HI you could just have it open but with a limit of say 2 units of heavy foot allowed; you don't need to go all Biblical! Regards C Chris I don't think your suggestion of an open comp is sensible if it was I doubt many people would use biblical armies which is the whole point of Tony's proposed competition. Also I think it's generally accepted that adlg does not work as well when played across periods hence a vast majority of the comps are period specific
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chrisr
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Post by chrisr on Nov 20, 2016 23:51:30 GMT
As usual Paul I'm struggling to understand your logic.
Tony's reasoning for suggesting a Biblical period competition was that there is a 'big divide between armies that have HI and those that don't' and that chariot armies had few HI and he hoped that by focussing on those armies people would be able to use more medium foot.
Now I don't agree with any of those points. If there is a divide it's between armies with decent mounted and those without. Chariot armies often have decent mounted. Many also have substantial numbers of heavy infantry. Ergo a chariot themed competition won't be one where medium foot thrive.
I only raised DBM because in that rule set chariot armies could make good use of troops who were classified in that set as Bl(F) but get treated as Medium Foot in ADLG. I tried to explain why Bl(F) worked and why Medium Foot don't.
If we play a chariot theme at 15mm I'll participate. If it's 25mm I can't.
The metal alone for an ADLG 25mm NKE army would cost £300; not spending that. If folk want to play with big toys then I've got Hoplites, all manner of Alexandrian and Successor, Romans (Late and Patsy), Normans, Anglo-Normans, Swiss, Serbian Empire, Medieval German, and the figures to pass muster as several others. Shame if I can't use any of them because of Tony's mistaken beliefs about Medium Foot and chariot armies!
My suggestion was to try and solve two objectives:- 1 Allow people to use the armies they have; and 2 Meet Tony's concern that HI was making Medium Foot unplayable.
Your comment of course ignored recognising that there was a problem to solve and failed to comment on the solution suggested. Which isn't helpful.
Regards C
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Paulg
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Post by Paulg on Nov 21, 2016 0:08:41 GMT
As usual Paul I'm struggling to understand your logic. Tony's reasoning for suggesting a Biblical period competition was that there is a 'big divide between armies that have HI and those that don't' and that chariot armies had few HI and he hoped that by focussing on those armies people would be able to use more medium foot. Now I don't agree with any of those points. If there is a divide it's between armies with decent mounted and those without. Chariot armies often have decent mounted. Many also have substantial numbers of heavy infantry. Ergo a chariot themed competition won't be one where medium foot thrive. I only raised DBM because in that rule set chariot armies could make good use of troops who were classified in that set as Bl(F) but get treated as Medium Foot in ADLG. I tried to explain why Bl(F) worked and why Medium Foot don't. If we play a chariot theme at 15mm I'll participate. If it's 25mm I can't. The metal alone for an ADLG 25mm NKE army would cost £300; not spending that. If folk want to play with big toys then I've got Hoplites, all manner of Alexandrian and Successor, Romans (Late and Patsy), Normans, Anglo-Normans, Swiss, Serbian Empire, Medieval German, and the figures to pass muster as several others. Shame if I can't use any of them because of Tony's mistaken beliefs about Medium Foot and chariot armies! My suggestion was to try and solve two objectives:- 1 Allow people to use the armies they have; and 2 Meet Tony's concern that HI was making Medium Foot unplayable. Your comment of course ignored recognising that there was a problem to solve and failed to comment on the solution suggested. Which isn't helpful. Regards C Chris you may be surprised to know that a number of people have already confirmed that they will play 25mm biblical so it's highly likely that there will be a 25mm comp just because you don't have a suitable does not meant the competition should not take place
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Paulg
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Post by Paulg on Nov 21, 2016 0:19:06 GMT
As usual Paul I'm struggling to understand your logic. Tony's reasoning for suggesting a Biblical period competition was that there is a 'big divide between armies that have HI and those that don't' and that chariot armies had few HI and he hoped that by focussing on those armies people would be able to use more medium foot. Now I don't agree with any of those points. If there is a divide it's between armies with decent mounted and those without. Chariot armies often have decent mounted. Many also have substantial numbers of heavy infantry. Ergo a chariot themed competition won't be one where medium foot thrive. I only raised DBM because in that rule set chariot armies could make good use of troops who were classified in that set as Bl(F) but get treated as Medium Foot in ADLG. I tried to explain why Bl(F) worked and why Medium Foot don't. If we play a chariot theme at 15mm I'll participate. If it's 25mm I can't. The metal alone for an ADLG 25mm NKE army would cost £300; not spending that. If folk want to play with big toys then I've got Hoplites, all manner of Alexandrian and Successor, Romans (Late and Patsy), Normans, Anglo-Normans, Swiss, Serbian Empire, Medieval German, and the figures to pass muster as several others. Shame if I can't use any of them because of Tony's mistaken beliefs about Medium Foot and chariot armies! My suggestion was to try and solve two objectives:- 1 Allow people to use the armies they have; and 2 Meet Tony's concern that HI was making Medium Foot unplayable. Your comment of course ignored recognising that there was a problem to solve and failed to comment on the solution suggested. Which isn't helpful. Regards C Chris you may be surprised to know that a number of people have already confirmed that they will play 25mm biblical so it's highly likely that there will be a 25mm comp just because you don't have a suitable does not meant the competition should not take place Sorry, I meant to add that I don't have a 15 mm chariot army so I could not play if that was scale but I'm not saying the format should be changed because of that which is what you seem to be suggesting
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chrisr
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Post by chrisr on Nov 21, 2016 1:20:07 GMT
I'm suggesting we change the format because:- a) The analysis driving the choice of the format is flawed; I would guess that fewer people have chariot armies in either scale than almost any other period; c) Even if Tony's analysis is correct you could keep the competition open to more people by adopting a format that directly restricts the use of HI. Now I know you have a very pretty Assyrian army in 25mm Paul. It consists of Knights (Heavy Chariots) and Line Foot who can be Medium or Heavy Swordsmen. Would it really be at a disadvantage if it were facing my infamous Nancy Normans with their Knights (Milites) and Spearmen? And would a theme that can include an army like yours really encourage the use of Medium Foot? Goodnight C
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Paulg
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Post by Paulg on Nov 21, 2016 19:42:33 GMT
I'm suggesting we change the format because:- a) The analysis driving the choice of the format is flawed; I would guess that fewer people have chariot armies in either scale than almost any other period; c) Even if Tony's analysis is correct you could keep the competition open to more people by adopting a format that directly restricts the use of HI. Now I know you have a very pretty Assyrian army in 25mm Paul. It consists of Knights (Heavy Chariots) and Line Foot who can be Medium or Heavy Swordsmen. Would it really be at a disadvantage if it were facing my infamous Nancy Normans with their Knights (Milites) and Spearmen? And would a theme that can include an army like yours really encourage the use of Medium Foot? And Goodnight C Chris I can see that we are not going to agree on this subject I suggest that we refrain from further jousting and just let tony run the comp how he wishes. From my viewpoint I hope it's big toys and biblical and if there is enough interest I am sure he will consider a small toys biblical as well. If the comp has a small number of entries so be it.
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